The cost of illegals in Los Angeles County

Then isn’t the solution to get rid of the Welfare State? After all, isn’t the real issue how the State transfers wealth from productive people to the non-productive? Why scapegoat immigrants and use the immigration issue as a red-herring?

Yes, I completely agree with you about wiping out the welfare system in this country… but I’m not “using” illegals as a means to an end.

Actually, when you think about it… drying up handouts WOULD actually AID in drying up our border problem as there’s less of an incentive to come here for a free ride.

The cited figures did not include the fact that children age 5-18 are educated in the public schools. If some or all need English as a Second Language, the district must have the program and educators. Their scores on the No Child Left Behind ‘valuable’ standadized tests count as all other students registered in the district. I have no brilliant answers, political or otherwise. I am just full of questions…

The cited figures did not include education at all… so there’s no point in arguing about educating them in the context of my post.

So why can’t we agree to address the core issue…the welfare state?

Without the welfare state, you would have absolutely no reason to object to mexicans being here. None, whatsoever, unless you have some pathological revulsion to dark-skinned spanish-speakers.

Jason, that’s my point… without the incentives that are attracting them here illegally, they wouldn’t BE here illegally… and again, it’s not JUST Hispanics that are classified as illegals, so if anyone here has a pathological fixation on “dark-skinned” Spanish speakers here it seems to be you.

The people wanting to cuddle them, and give them everything free of charge and free of effort and responsibility are the one perpetuating the problem. Dry that up and the desire to flock here for freebies dries up and you can work on a much smaller issue.

You don’t seem to have an issue with absolving our borders but tell me, how do we help the world by giving them all slave wages, and absorb their cost of living into our economy. It’s not possible.

I have JUST as much a problem with an illegal who speaks Spanish, that I do with one that speaks Polish… or Russian…

BTW, I didn’t DELETE anything you said intentionally… my comment moderation tossed you into a pile of SPAM and I simply hit “delete all”… but seriously any more veiled insinuations that my motives are racist will be met with a permanent ban from commenting here.

I get your point. But here’s mine… you are complaining about immigrants when you should be complaining about the welfare state. There is no categorical difference between Jose Miguel Immigrant, and Billy Bob Arkansas when it comes to the plundering of the productive class via the State. To take issue with “illegals” you, intentionally or not, put a giant “call me a racist” sign on your back. As I said, its entirely possible you are not a racist, but your single minded obsession with immigration doesn’t paint you in a good light, especially since, let’s face it…there is no “illegal Canadian immigration” being railed against. The immigration issue is, like it or not, Mexican immigration.

>> You don’t seem to have an issue with absolving our borders but tell me, how do we help the world by giving them all slave wages, and absorb their cost of living into our economy. It’s not possible.

Oh, but it is possible! Economics 101, my friend. What you call “slave wages” is merely a bias from your own particular socio-economic position. The fact is, those “slave wages” represent a huge opportunity to aquire more wealth than what was previously available to the immigrant. Indeed, that’s the whole reason they are trying to get here.

In economics terms, this is what is called opportunity cost, and is what essentially drives the price of things…goods, services, etc. Instead of focusing on some idea of absolute or intrinsic value (which the economics profession threw out over 120 years ago), you need to evaluate these things in terms of the perspective of those who are earning the wages. This is an argument I often use when I discuss free trade and globalization with anti-capitalist liberals. If your only choices are slaving away in the fields in order to eke out a subsistence level existence, vs. making a comparitively much higher wage doing some other task like working in a factory…a person will choose the more productive mode of employment.

To you, sure…picking lettuce for a few bucks a day would completely suck….but from your position, having been born into a wealthy culture that has had the benefits of a couple hundred years of industrialization and economic growth… you are at much better “starting point” in life. For you, migrant labor and such is much less attractive. Its “slave wages” to you because your range of choices include must more lucrative opportunities, and therefore, to go pick lettuce would incur a huge opportunity cost, as you forgo those other possibilities.

There is one core axiom of free market, capitalist economics and voluntary exchange that cannot be over looked. In any mutually voluntary exchange, each participant in the trade gives up some he values less in order to gain something he values more. If it were not the case, then one party or the other would not enter into the exchange. In short, marketplace trade is not zero sum… it is win-win.

Then, after this is said and done…you have someone who is now more wealthy and is in a better position to demand other goods and services from other people, thus creating a need for more jobs. If Jose is making more money from his labor, he is able to buy more clothes, cars, books, toys, and such.

And there is a benefit to the richer, as well. When James the Blogger trades with Jose the Immigrant, James is getting something of value, at a price much better than he could otherwise, while Jose is provided a vastly more lucrative opportunity than he had access to before. Furthermore, by hiring someone like Jose to do something like pick lettuce or mow lawns, that frees up James to focus on building a rocket ship, inventing the cure for cancer, or securing a spot on Dancing with the Stars.

(I’m hyperbolizing for comedic effect, but you get my point.)

Bottom line… the economic argument in favor of free immigration is intricately linked in the concepts of division of labor and specialization, which are essential components of free market capitalism. Unless you think that capitalism is not a viable economic system, then you must oppose the arbitrary stifling of expansion and development of the free market. The prosperity of ALL OF US depends on it.

To take issue with “illegals” you, intentionally or not, put a giant “call me a racist” sign on your back.

Sorry Jason, I’ve been in thousands of discussions about illegal immigration and I have to say you’re the ONLY person who has even thought of THINKING I was being racist. In fact, I’d say MAYBE half of the conversations I have on the topic contain elements of Hispanic culture and I’ve had many a conversation about illegals from non North American countries. To write it off as a “non issue” simply because Hispanic illegals outnumber other nationalities is flat out disingenuous.

To you, sure…picking lettuce for a few bucks a day would completely suck….but from your position, having been born into a wealthy culture that has had the benefits of a couple hundred years of industrialization and economic growth… you are at much better “starting point” in life.

Yes, it would suck, but the way you talk about these people, you’re essentially saying “they don’t know any better”. Just because someone COMES from poor doesn’t mean they cannot work like the rest of us.

We have avenues (that need some major hedge clipping to improve their effectiveness) to allow people to immigrate LEGALLY into this country. I’m not going to play “what if” and pretend we don’t. I understand your point that employment is employment no matter the “status” of the individuals but until you find a way to dissolve any and all immigration policy in the United States we still have borders here and we still have laws like them or not.

In terms of illegals from Mexico… we need to work WITH Mexico to fix the reason they’re flooding us as well as dry up any incentives to come here. Same goes for any other country hemorrhaging citizens.

I think it’s safe to say we’re not going to gain any ground on either of our points so at this point I’ll say I’m going to agree to disagree but I’m still drawing a line in the sand, I am not a racist and I will not tolerate being labeled one (in person or on my blog).